Interview with a vaccinator

On the 17th of May 2021, I attended the COVID-19 vaccination appointment made for me by NHS Scotland.

I wanted to ask questions around the safety and efficacy of the vaccine + I wanted to witness how informed consent was being obtained.

My vaccinator gave permission to the voice recording 

Vaccinator  (00:00:00):
So you are here today, I presume you consent to get the vaccine.

Me (00:00:02):
Well, I've got some questions to ask before I consent, if that's okay.

Vaccinator  (00:00:05):
Yeah, of course.

Vaccinator  (00:00:07):
No, that is fine.

Me (00:00:08):
Yeah, so, we don't have the option today between AstraZeneca and Pfizer.

Vaccinator  (00:00:11):
No, sorry, it's just AstraZeneca that we're having today.

Me (00:00:14):
Right,

Me (00:00:15):
okay,

Me (00:00:15):
so obviously the guidance at the moment is under 40s,

Me (00:00:17):
but it's not a big leap between 40.

Me (00:00:20):
So if I'd wanted to take an alternative to AstraZeneca, would that be possible, but not today?

Vaccinator  (00:00:25):
Not today.

Vaccinator  (00:00:26):
So if you weren't happy with AstraZeneca today and you wanted Pfizer,

Vaccinator  (00:00:31):
it would go down as,

Vaccinator  (00:00:32):
well,

Vaccinator  (00:00:33):
obviously today it would go down as not consented,

Vaccinator  (00:00:35):
which means it would go to more or less a post-apheron after the back acute for

Vaccinator  (00:00:41):
when the next Pfizer clinic will be able to go out.

Vaccinator  (00:00:45):
There's unknown, I mean it could be six weeks, it could be six months.

Vaccinator  (00:00:47):
You just don't know because it would be when the next thing would be available.

Vaccinator  (00:00:51):
So again, totally personal choice, up to you.

Me (00:00:54):
Can I ask you as well, what's your thoughts on AstraZeneca for under 40s?

Me (00:00:58):
Are you under 40?

Vaccinator  (00:01:00):
Me?

Vaccinator  (00:01:01):
Yes, I'm 25.

Me (00:01:01):
Okay, sorry.

Vaccinator  (00:01:03):
No, no, it's fine.

Vaccinator  (00:01:05):
Me, personally, I think it's fine.

Vaccinator  (00:01:07):
I've had both my Jags, both AstraZeneca.

Me (00:01:09):
Both AstraZeneca.

Vaccinator  (00:01:09):
Both AstraZeneca.

Vaccinator  (00:01:11):
In terms of the whole blood clot thing,

Vaccinator  (00:01:14):
MILLION Â people have been vaccinated FOUR Â people that's the odds FOUR Â in a MILLION

Me (00:01:18):
okay but you're aware you know how many people have been have reported deaths with

Vaccinator  (00:01:23):
blood clots with AstraZeneca with MHRA so in regards to like the blood clots thing

Vaccinator  (00:01:29):
and everything for women especially I think um obviously if you take the

Vaccinator  (00:01:33):
contraceptive pill for more than five years you've got one in 250 a chance so for

Vaccinator  (00:01:38):
me I'm more likely to get that because of

Vaccinator  (00:01:40):
I take the pill, then I am getting the AstraZeneca.

Me (00:01:43):
Yeah, but you know the total number?

Me (00:01:44):
There's been 51 deaths recorded so far with blood clots of AstraZeneca.

Vaccinator  (00:01:49):
So again, I don't know the figures and I don't really know the background.

Me (00:01:53):
Okay, so these are MHRA published figures at the moment, so I'm not just making these up.

Me (00:01:58):
So that's in the public domain.

Me (00:02:00):
23 of those deaths have been in my age group and younger.

Me (00:02:04):
So that gives me concern about taking the AstraZeneca vaccine and the potential for blood clots.

Vaccinator  (00:02:10):
So again,

Vaccinator  (00:02:11):
I'm not too informed about all of those deaths specifically and I wouldn't be able

Vaccinator  (00:02:17):
to tell you but I would imagine that some of them have as well underlying health

Vaccinator  (00:02:20):
conditions as well as just a fit,

Vaccinator  (00:02:23):
healthy,

Vaccinator  (00:02:23):
normal person with underlying health conditions.

Vaccinator  (00:02:26):
probably added something to it,

Vaccinator  (00:02:28):
because if you do get a blood clot as well,

Vaccinator  (00:02:30):
it is a treatable thing.

Me (00:02:32):
There is half a dozen or more deaths,

Me (00:02:34):
18 year olds,

Me (00:02:35):
to 29 year olds as well,

Me (00:02:37):
so the chances of those guys having underlying conditions I imagine would be slim.

Vaccinator  (00:02:41):
Yes,

Vaccinator  (00:02:41):
but again,

Vaccinator  (00:02:42):
potentially it is,

Vaccinator  (00:02:43):
because obviously it's a slim chance that they got it anyway,

Vaccinator  (00:02:45):
so potentially they might have.

Vaccinator  (00:02:46):
Again, I don't know.

Me (00:02:47):
No, that's fine.

Me (00:02:48):
Again, there's a lot of NHS staff, your age group, will have had it, I imagine.

Vaccinator  (00:02:53):
Yeah,

Vaccinator  (00:02:53):
as I say,

Vaccinator  (00:02:54):
most,

Vaccinator  (00:02:54):
well,

Vaccinator  (00:02:55):
me and all of,

Vaccinator  (00:02:55):
most people I know that work in NHS will have AstraZeneca.

Me (00:02:59):
Can I just ask a couple of questions about the ingredients of the AstraZeneca lactone?

Vaccinator  (00:03:03):
I can,

Vaccinator  (00:03:04):
but if you want,

Vaccinator  (00:03:05):
I can actually go get the pharmacist who will be able to answer it a lot better

Vaccinator  (00:03:08):
than me.

Me (00:03:08):
Okay, if you think so, yeah.

Vaccinator  (00:03:09):
Because I wouldn't be able to answer it fully,

Vaccinator  (00:03:12):
it would be taking a stab in the dark,

Vaccinator  (00:03:13):
but I can find someone who can be able to answer it really fully.

Me (00:03:16):
But if you're one of the people administering the vaccine,

Me (00:03:18):
are you not supposed to be...

Vaccinator  (00:03:20):
I do,

Vaccinator  (00:03:20):
I know what's in the vaccine and I know what it's made up of,

Vaccinator  (00:03:22):
but I wouldn't be able to discuss it in detail if you've got in-depth questions.

Vaccinator  (00:03:26):
Obviously,

Vaccinator  (00:03:27):
I've been through my vaccine course and I know about the vaccine,

Vaccinator  (00:03:30):
but if you've got in-depth questions,

Vaccinator  (00:03:32):
I wouldn't be able to answer them as fully as I feel like you would want.

Me (00:03:35):
Okay,

Me (00:03:35):
I'll just ask a question then starting off with the CHIMPANZEE Â adenovirus that's in

Me (00:03:40):
the vaccine.

Me (00:03:41):
What's the thinking there?

Vaccinator  (00:03:43):
Thinking behind us in what you mean?

Me (00:03:45):
Using chimpanzee virus as part of this vaccine?

Vaccinator  (00:03:49):
Well,

Vaccinator  (00:03:49):
again,

Vaccinator  (00:03:51):
it's more just the adenovirus vaccine because obviously adenovirus has been around

Vaccinator  (00:03:54):
for ages so it's been proven and it's been used in other vaccines before.

Me (00:03:59):
So the chimpanzee adenovirus has been used in other vaccines?

Vaccinator  (00:04:02):
No, just adenovirus has been.

Vaccinator  (00:04:04):
I don't know about the chimpanzee side of it,

Vaccinator  (00:04:07):
but I know adenovirus has been used because that's why when they created this vaccine,

Vaccinator  (00:04:10):
they used a model off of another vaccine already in circulation.

Me (00:04:14):
And there's human embryonic kidney tissue as well.

Me (00:04:18):
It's one of the ingredients.

Vaccinator  (00:04:20):
I could not call it on because I don't know.

Me (00:04:23):
but again it's like for religious or moral reasons there's people out there who

Me (00:04:26):
can't take a vaccine that's got any parts of animals or any parts of humans

Me (00:04:30):
especially not from an embryo but again that's if you if you read

Me (00:04:34):
the data sheet it's clearly listed on there as well along with genetically modified

Me (00:04:38):
organisms so these these are things these are just concerns i have.

Me (00:04:40):
I mean i came

Me (00:04:41):
along today to have a have a chat with yourselves and agree consent because

Me (00:04:45):
obviously we need INFORMED CONSENT before exactly

Me (00:04:49):
um so i mean that gives me concern the mhra the 51 deaths of astrazeneca do you

Me (00:04:54):
know how many deaths have been reported so far in the uk right okay well it's 1143

Me (00:04:58):
right okay now that's that's again that's mhra published documents so that's you

Me (00:05:03):
know you'll understand the yellow card system yes so there's been 1143 deaths from

Me (00:05:07):
the vaccine that worries me now i know we've done 30 million vaccinations uh and

Me (00:05:12):
then a further i don't know i think it's 20 million

Me (00:05:15):
second dose vaccinations, but still, it's enough to give me concern.

Me (00:05:18):
Now, I'm 40, well, I'm going to think of myself reasonably fit.

Me (00:05:22):
You know, I think if I get COVID, you know, I'd back my immune system.

Me (00:05:27):
So what I was wanting to ask today is,

Me (00:05:30):
What's the benefits of me taking the vaccine today over my own immune system,

Me (00:05:35):
given I'm going to call myself young,

Me (00:05:37):
but I'm relatively young and in good shape.

Vaccinator  (00:05:40):
Well, again, again, it's up to you.

Vaccinator  (00:05:43):
And again, personally, everybody wants to take the vaccine for different reasons.

Vaccinator  (00:05:47):
One of the main reasons why I personally wanted to get the vaccine was to protect other people.

Vaccinator  (00:05:52):
But again, I totally understand if you want, like, you know, not everybody,

Vaccinator  (00:05:56):
is you know how do you think if enough people have it why should i have it myself

Vaccinator  (00:06:00):
but yeah but me personally i think herd immunity is a massive thing so i think that

Vaccinator  (00:06:04):
the more people get and they're safe and the more back to normal we can get and i

Vaccinator  (00:06:09):
think out of the chances if you look at the figures for the people who have had

Vaccinator  (00:06:12):
covered and not been vaccinated and then died the that number will be higher than

Vaccinator  (00:06:16):
the people who've had the vaccine and then had a then had a death from that

Vaccinator  (00:06:20):
So I think if you're a betting man you'd rather take your chances with the vaccine

Me (00:06:24):
than with Covid.

Me (00:06:25):
We did have a big spike in deaths in January and February just after the vaccine

Me (00:06:29):
and it was predominantly in the older 80s.

Vaccinator  (00:06:31):
But again that was January and February because in December we were let down to

Vaccinator  (00:06:35):
level 2 so we had a lot more mixing in December and Christmas so I think it was

Vaccinator  (00:06:39):
bound to happen later after Christmas because obviously we were all let loose more

Vaccinator  (00:06:43):
or less before Christmas.

Me (00:06:44):
But you say you want to protect others but if I take the vaccine today does it stop

Me (00:06:48):
me catching Covid?

Vaccinator  (00:06:49):
It DOESN’T stop you catching Covid but it will stop you and again what's good for the

Vaccinator  (00:06:53):
country is that it will mean that you have less of a reaction to it so it means

Vaccinator  (00:06:58):
that you most likely want you to be hospitalised which means that the NHS can then.

Me (00:07:02):
But again putting tickets on my self I wouldn't think I'd be hospitalised if I

Me (00:07:05):
caught it anyway given my general fitness.

Vaccinator  (00:07:07):
Which is the same if you take the vaccine today you wouldn't think you'd have any

Vaccinator  (00:07:10):
reactions to it.

Me (00:07:11):
Yeah but if I take the vaccine will it stop me transmitting it as well?

Vaccinator  (00:07:16):
No, not necessarily.

Me (00:07:17):
So I can still transmit it after having had the vaccine?

Me (00:07:20):
Yes.

Me (00:07:20):
And it won't stop you getting sick?

Vaccinator  (00:07:22):
Well, again, it depends.

Vaccinator  (00:07:24):
Again, it's your own immune system.

Vaccinator  (00:07:25):
Every individual will react and take COVID differently.

Vaccinator  (00:07:29):
But the whole purpose behind the vaccine is if you get it,

Me (00:07:31):
your body is more...

Vaccinator  (00:07:32):
If you do get the COVID vaccine,

Vaccinator  (00:07:34):
it will be more virus.

Vaccinator  (00:07:37):
Your body will be more able to cope with it and defend itself.

Me (00:07:40):
Okay.

Me (00:07:41):
And are you aware that the vaccine,

Me (00:07:43):
if the vaccine is licensed, if

Me (00:07:45):
it's fully licensed at the moment?

Vaccinator  (00:07:47):
I would say yes it is because every staff member here has signed a patient group

Vaccinator  (00:07:52):
directive and everybody is trained the same way and it's been signed and on that

Vaccinator  (00:07:56):
PGG in the back of it it is signatures from all the chief medical staff in Scotland

Vaccinator  (00:08:01):
and the doctors all signing it off.

Me (00:08:03):
See, honestly, this worries me because it's not fully licensed.

Me (00:08:06):
It has temporary approval from MHRA just now,

Me (00:08:09):
something called Regulation 174,

Me (00:08:11):
which gives it temporary approval for use in what is deemed to be an emergency.

Me (00:08:16):
Now, it's still experimental at the moment.

Me (00:08:19):
The trials are still ongoing.

Me (00:08:22):
So the trials don't finish till 2023.

Me (00:08:25):
and not until those stage 3 trials are finished can it be given full licence.

Me (00:08:30):
So at the moment we're taking an experimental vaccine and we're giving it to 50 million,

Me (00:08:34):
obviously we've been handed out in the UK,

Me (00:08:36):
isn't it?

Me (00:08:36):
That concerns me,

Vaccinator  (00:08:37):
Yeah, which I can again fully understand.

Vaccinator  (00:08:40):
I mean,

Vaccinator  (00:08:40):
here today,

Vaccinator  (00:08:41):
I mean,

Vaccinator  (00:08:41):
yes,

Vaccinator  (00:08:41):
you've got questions,

Vaccinator  (00:08:42):
but we're not forcing anybody...

Vaccinator  (00:08:44):
No,

Me (00:08:44):
no,

Me (00:08:44):
I know you're not,

Me (00:08:45):
but this is why I'm trying to establish consent,

Me (00:08:47):
So...

Me (00:08:49):
We don't know what the long-term side effects are because the long-term studies

Me (00:08:52):
haven't been done yet.

Me (00:08:53):
The trials are still ongoing.

Vaccinator  (00:08:54):
Yeah, because there's nobody who's had long-term to then do a study on.

Me (00:08:57):
At this point, we don't know what the impact is on pregnant women.

Vaccinator  (00:09:01):
No, that's why we're not offering it to pregnant women.

Me (00:09:03):
Well, we are offering it to pregnant women, but only in certain  women.

Me (00:09:05):
Again,

Me (00:09:06):
another MHRA stat is that there's been 117 spontaneous abortions following the

Me (00:09:12):
pregnant women who've had the vaccine and then aborted.

Vaccinator  (00:09:15):
And again, I don't think you could blame... I'm not pregnant.

Vaccinator  (00:09:19):
If that's a concern you have.

Vaccinator  (00:09:23):
I don't know the background of those numbers,

Vaccinator  (00:09:25):
but me personally,

Vaccinator  (00:09:26):
my background is labour ward and special care.

Vaccinator  (00:09:29):
So I don't think all those would have other side effects as well.

Vaccinator  (00:09:34):
I don't think you could blame all of them.

Me (00:09:35):
No, I think that's a valid point, but I think more investigation needs done.

Me (00:09:38):
Definitely.

Me (00:09:39):
And when the trials were undertaken, they were done from 18-year-olds to 65-year-olds.

Me (00:09:42):
There was no pregnant women or breastfeeding women allowed to take part in the trials,

Me (00:09:45):
so we do not know what the impact is.

Me (00:09:48):
So,

Me (00:09:48):
also,

Me (00:09:49):
I mean,

Me (00:09:49):
there's been,

Me (00:09:50):
it might be fear-mongering,

Me (00:09:51):
but there's been concerns about fertility after having had the vaccine.

Me (00:09:56):
And again,

Me (00:09:56):
nobody knows,

Me (00:09:57):
this is the thing,

Me (00:09:58):
nobody knows because the trials aren't complete.

Vaccinator  (00:09:59):
Nobody knows about, well, obviously, about a lot of the drugs that are out there.

Vaccinator  (00:10:03):
There's a lot,

Vaccinator  (00:10:04):
if you read the back of even like a paracetamol box,

Vaccinator  (00:10:06):
some of the side effects are horrific.

Vaccinator  (00:10:08):
But again, drugs like that, they're being in long-term use and whatnot.

Vaccinator  (00:10:11):
But everything's got side effects, everything's got that.

Vaccinator  (00:10:13):
And I think it's just, I think you just have to kind of...

Vaccinator  (00:10:17):
Obviously this is different because it is new,

Vaccinator  (00:10:20):
it's experimental,

Vaccinator  (00:10:21):
it's all fast and it's happening.

Me (00:10:23):
Okay.

Me (00:10:24):
If I take the vaccine today, do I get any kind of certification to prove that I've had it?

Vaccinator  (00:10:29):
Nope.

Vaccinator  (00:10:29):
We don't offer any passports or stamps or anything like that.

Vaccinator  (00:10:32):
Obviously it's on your record, so if you wanted proof of that, you could contact your GP

Vaccinator  (00:10:41):
They're not giving out cards or anything like that.

Vaccinator  (00:10:44):
But it is on your internet.

Vaccinator  (00:10:46):
So if you wanted something you were doing and you wanted a friend,

Vaccinator  (00:10:50):
you could contact your GP and they could print out your vaccination certificate.

Me (00:10:54):
And to agree, informed consent, did I need to sign anything?

(00:10:58):
No, no, I just verbally confirm with you and then I put it on a laptop that you had consented.

Me (00:11:03):
Right, okay.

Me (00:11:08):
Listen, I don't mean to give you a hard time today, but it's kind of a big deal for me.

Vaccinator  (00:11:15):
No, it makes sense.

Vaccinator  (00:11:16):
Have my answers been okay for you, or do you want someone else?

Me (00:11:18):
No,

Me (00:11:19):
I mean,

Me (00:11:19):
your answers are what I expected,

Me (00:11:20):
but I think where I am just now is I'm not going to go ahead and have the vaccine today.

Vaccinator  (00:11:24):
Okay, that's fine.

Vaccinator  (00:11:25):
That's your personal choice, and that is totally fine.

Me (00:11:28):
I don't want to feel like I've wasted your time,

Me (00:11:29):
but I hope you maybe take a wee bit away from what I've been saying these days.

Me (00:11:33):
And those figures are there, they're in general population, they're not made up numbers.

Vaccinator  (00:11:38):
No,

Vaccinator  (00:11:38):
no,

Vaccinator  (00:11:39):
and again,

Vaccinator  (00:11:39):
as I say,

Vaccinator  (00:11:40):
we're not due to,

Vaccinator  (00:11:41):
we're here to give it to that because people didn't want it really.

Vaccinator  (00:11:44):
We're not here to force people or whatever and it's up to the members of the public

Vaccinator  (00:11:50):
whether they want to consent or not.

Vaccinator  (00:11:52):
Which is why we always ask.

Vaccinator  (00:11:55):
Can I ask, would you take the Pfizer if you've offered it?

Vaccinator  (00:11:57):
Not to offer it today.

Me (00:11:59):
No, no.

Me (00:11:59):
I'd have to do a bit more research for the Pfizer.

Me (00:12:03):
I've got Pfizer questions,

Me (00:12:04):
but my expectation today was that it would be asked for anything that was offered.

Me (00:12:08):
What worries me about the Pfizer and the Moderna is the whole messenger RNA

Me (00:12:13):
side of it so we're rolling out a vaccine that we've never used that technology

Me (00:12:17):
before and again it's very much experimental the same stuff that applies to

Me (00:12:20):
AstraZeneca with regards to the trials is still there so if it was today I think I

Me (00:12:25):
would be saying no but I'd be happy to have a chat with somebody but I mean where I

Me (00:12:30):
personally think that

Me (00:12:33):
I think you spoke about herd immunity earlier.

Me (00:12:35):
I think we're probably approaching that anyway, regardless of the vaccine.

Me (00:12:39):
I mean, you've seen the deaths and the cases have fallen, as they did last spring, summer.

Me (00:12:45):
I think natural herd immunity would be far better than the vaccine.


17th May 2021


Copy of my Patient Information Leaflet, handed out on the day. Note that it was revision dated 22md February 2021 and was then 3 months out of date

At the time of my appointment, the MHRA had withdrawn the offer of AstraZeneca to the under 40s, due to the risk of blood clotting associated with the AZ jag. I was just over 40 and was being offered AstraZeneca.

I declined the offer and remain unvaccinated to this da

y